Truth Driven Thinking Forum

[RPS]

This is in response to the invitation from the "Overview" podcasts inviting threads on topics raised in "A Secret of the Universe". Monogamy was raised in the book but has not yet been discussed in a podcast.

We seem to be stuck arguing ID versus Evolution, was Jesus real or not, and similar topics. By keeping the dialog on the basics the creationists and fundamentalists have won in a way. We're arguing with them instead of looking into how understandings derived from evolution and scientific approaches may better inform us. I'd like to start this thread for some back and forth on Monogamy. Maybe this background would support and encourage Steve Gibson to go a little deeper and maybe dedicate a show to looking at what scientists might tell us that conflicts with the Monogamy dogma as well as how truth driven thinking might help us better understand the challenges of long term commitment.

A recent page from Slate Magazine ( http://www.slate.com/id/2174411/pagenum/2/ ) has two very different "sexperts" who were asked what they've never been able to figure out about sex. Dan Savage, a Seattle sex columnist notes that sex came before marriage, religion, cultures, and humans. He points out that all our rules were built around sex when we didn't understand practically anything in the world, let alone sex. Dan says, "some of our attempts to sanctify and elevate sex run so counter to human nature that they cause nothing but misery." Later down on the same page Rabbi Shmuley Botech observes that sex poses a fundamental contradiction to love. Sex thrives on novelty and new love rather than relationships, routine, time spent together, and intimacy. He asks, "Why must couples choose between being lovers and being best friends, between being passionate and being intimate?" He closes with, "Why can't sex and love go absolutely hand in hand, as they should?" I don't think religion can answer the Rabbi's questions, science is our best hope.

While it's fairly easy to believe the Monogamy myths when you're young, idealistic, in love and full of hormones, surely most of us who've been around awhile at least wonder if the truth is a little more complicated than common wisdom might suggest. Just begin to look below the surface. Look at what our bodies tell us; we have sperm that don’t go for the egg, but rather hang back to fight rivals. Look at socio-biology or evolutionary psychology; the Coolidge effect applies to us as it does to nearly every other species. Look at divorce rates and what the newspapers tell us every day; the conservative views advocated by David Vitter (R-La,) and Larry Craig (R-Idaho) don’t work for them or many other people. (Coincidentally (?) both pushed legislation supporting ID). Look at most of the relationships of your friends and your relatives; how are they doing? Look internally; does the reality live up to the hype? How can the myths and dogma built around monogamy be true? Why would anyone with a commitment to TDT put faith in those beliefs?

Those of us committed to long term marriage (and children) seem to be left with little alternative but to take the paltry advice that is out there and muddle through on our own in relative isolation. Perhaps even the most successful of couples end up feeling guilty for not living the “monogamy myth” and not being as successfully happy as they imagine they should be. There is a need for us to have honest dialogue, support for others, sharing of experiences without judgment, more trial and error, and overall a commitment to live life consistent with who we are. Can we develop some strong viable ground between the one extreme of trying to live the “Leave it to Beaver”/”Christian eternal monogamous ideal and either serial monogamy or abandoning all boundaries? Ian in "A Secret of the Universe" correctly refers to our culture as being both hyper-sexual and prudish at the same time. How do we find a happy middle? In truth, honesty and fairness, how do we approach building compromises that allow us all rewarding lives, greater freedom, comfort and support while fostering commitment, responsibility and love? How do we reform society to work for the best of us all? I think TDT strips away many prejudices and argues for freedom. TDT is effective as tackling racism, homophobia, and other prejudices. Can we do more for the larger population?

I do think long term committed relationships have tremendous value. I don't think burying your head in the sand is the best way to foster success. I just threw out a smattering of thoughts in the area to encourage dialog. I'd enjoy more back and forth to the extent this piques others interests and welcome conflicting and supporting positions.
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RPS

[RPS]

I hate to reply to myself as this thread has proven to be quite dead. But it appears Richard Dawkins has joined Steve in bringing up this topic. I'm sure this will provoke a lot of discussion somewhere. Dawkins added more to the article to respond to the many early comments he had. As a good example of a truth seeker, he amended himself a little.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/richard_dawkins/2007/11/banishing_the_greeneyed_monste.html
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RPS

[Steve Gibson]

Thanks for the note! Interesting article & clarification. Does sound familiar, doesn't it

As for the lack of comments here, I'll have to work on driving people here! I get so many great emails yet often the world doesn't get to share in the dialogue! Working on it ... .
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Steve Gibson,
Reforming emotion-driven thinker